HTML help

[WhiteMage212]

I decided to start learning html and web design, but I got stuck. I understand how to bare bones of html works but I can't figure out how to format and position all the elements. So I'm looking for as many free resources that I can find to help me get started. I'm looking for both tutorial websites and forums (frequent and very active forums if possible) to help me get started. Some help would be greatly appreciated as I have been trying to learn how to make a decently working website for about a year.
P.S. why is it that most people frown upon the use of frames? What is the replacement?

[shooraijin]

The problem with frames is navigability. If you want to have, for example, a fixed nav-bar, a better approach is to simply make it a floating element. It's hard to bookmark a navigation point within a set of frames because you end up simply bookmarking the frameset.

There are a number of nice books on HTML, and I always recommend the O'Reilly titles on it. They are not dirt cheap but they are always thorough and compulsively researched.

[WhiteMage212]

I have one of the O'Reilly books for basic HTML, but that's about all I have. I was going to learn using that but the book teaches by using frames to organize most of the elements. It was written in 2008 so that might have something to do with it.
As much as I would try to go and buy a book, I don't really have the money to go and buy several different one's so that's why I'm seeking online help guides and forums. I may try going to the library and see if I can find any that are worth my time, but I'm really trying to find a forum since I'm sure I could find plenty of answers to most of my questions simply by searching.

[Midori]

Frames are deprecated because their functionality can mostly be replaced by better things. For menus and things like that, it's better to put them in the same file as the regular page than to use framesets, because with modern internet speeds, the extra download size is less expensive than having to make extra page requests (one for the frameset and each frame). For dynamically loading sections of a page, it's better to use the <object> tag, which has the same functionality as <iframe> but with more versatility. (Please don't use AJAX just to emulate iframes. That's a pet peeve of mine.)

As far as learning HTML goes, I know quite a bit of it, but I didn't learn it from any book. Once I knew the basic syntax of HTML (tags go in angle brackets, etc.) and I discovered how to add CSS, I could just google the specifics of any tag or CSS prop I wanted to know about; and if I didn't know what tag or property I needed to do something, I could just google "html how do I (whatever)". I almost always immediately found an article that told me how to do it.

So in short, HTML and CSS are complex enough that I'm not sure you can really learn things well from a single book or article. Instead, I prefer the approach of looking up individual, specific problems as I run into them.

[WhiteMage212]

That's the approach I was hoping to take simply because it would help me understand it better. And again, that's why I'm trying to find forums that are active so that I can just look through all the topics and find what I need and move along.
So I understand I need HTML and CSS, but what else do I need to get a decent looking website?

[Midori]

So I understand I need HTML and CSS, but what else do I need to get a decent looking website?

A sense of style, and an understanding of what visitors to your website will want to see.

[Sammy Boy]

I decided to start learning html and web design, but I got stuck. I understand how to bare bones of html works but I can't figure out how to format and position all the elements. So I'm looking for as many free resources that I can find to help me get started. I'm looking for both tutorial websites and forums (frequent and very active forums if possible) to help me get started. Some help would be greatly appreciated as I have been trying to learn how to make a decently working website for about a year.
P.S. why is it that most people frown upon the use of frames? What is the replacement?

May I suggest http://www.w3schools.com

I use it at times during work when I can't remember the precise syntax of something.

For positioning elements / sections in your site, I suggest you use division elements (<DIV>) and then define a series of classes and/or IDs in a global stylesheet.

The general format I use for DIVs is the box model (http://www.w3schools.com/css/css_boxmodel.asp).

Also think about what kind of browsers you wish to cater for. Generally it's easier to forget about compatibility with browsers such as IE6 and older, because they are a bit of a pain to code for.

If you intend to use image rollover effects, try to use text links with CSS effects instead. Or if you do want to use images, use sprites instead (e.g. http://css-tricks.com/css-sprites/).

For drop down menus and other javascripting effects, you could write your own, or include jquery (http://jquery.com/).

Feel free to post any questions here...

[WhiteMage212]

Well it looks like I'll be spending some time now on learning how to use CSS. I'll have to begin drafting ideas on what I want on each page to look like and what they do. Well now I have a better idea of what needs to be done.

[Alcuinus]

If I may chime in with my two cents... I like http://www.quirksmode.org

The author provides good examples of code and an excellent compatibility chart system for the different elements... it is advanced stuff but still very useful... for when you have to make a page.... that's... ugh... compatible with IE 8 >.>

anyhow... technical documentation can also be found here:
http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/
(e.g. http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/visufx.html#overflow)

this will all be useful in the future but for now, I'd say have a bunch of fun in the "try it" parts of w3schools. That is imo the best place to learn html: where you can try it out and have fun with it!

[Alcuinus]

Oh! btw! anyone know if the free version of Visual Studio has intellisense? If it does, I'd suggest using its text editor for writing the webpage.

[Arya Raiin]

If you're just wanting to learn how to make a basic webpage, W3's schools will give you a lot of information.

http://www.w3schools.com/

Wiki has a decent book on HTML for free.

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/HyperText_Markup_Language

Really, it just depends on how much you want to learn. To go pro you have to put some money into it. If you're just wanting to be able to run your own website or something like that the internet has enough info to teach you. HTML seems tricky to learn, but don't let yourself get overwhelmed. Pace yourself. Once you learn HTML try to learn basic CSS. CSS is really helpful for positioning elements and gives you a bit more to work with.

Javascript would be good to learn. I'm still working on that. Eventually, you'll probably end up needing to learn about servers and such. If you get the time, try getting a little info on FTP and SQL.

[Slater]

w3schools is great. For HTML/CSS noobs, it'll put you on the right path. In profession, it's still a handy resource for those tag attributes that are just on the tip of your tongue.

But at the end of the day I have to say that HTML and CSS is one of the most time-consuming "programming" processes. When developing complex webpages, pixel-polishing can easily consume hours and days. Sometimes, even the simplest of things can be the most frustrating XD

But never give up. If you can see it in your mind, there's a way to style it.

[armeck]

w3 schools is awesome! helped me win a state competition. and trust me, there are all kinds of reasons not to use iframs. the headfirst with html and css is a good book to read (not free but a good book) and the examples are a free resource

[WhiteMage212]

Oops, sorry guys, I've been busy. Forgot about my post. Well anyway, thanks for the pointers. I'll have to get started once I clear some free time. Oh, one last question. So if I were to use HTML 5 code with another version interchangablely in the same page, would the browsers read it? Or would it just become a mess (unreadable, etc.). Wasn't sure if I had to adhere to only one specific version of HTML for each page.

[Sammy Boy]

So if I were to use HTML 5 code with another version interchangablely in the same page, would the browsers read it? Or would it just become a mess (unreadable, etc.). Wasn't sure if I had to adhere to only one specific version of HTML for each page.

Sorry did you mean if an older browser would read HTML5? You could put in browser detect javascript code and apply HTML depending on the browser version.

[armeck]

Oops, sorry guys, I've been busy. Forgot about my post. Well anyway, thanks for the pointers. I'll have to get started once I clear some free time. Oh, one last question. So if I were to use HTML 5 code with another version interchangablely in the same page, would the browsers read it? Or would it just become a mess (unreadable, etc.). Wasn't sure if I had to adhere to only one specific version of HTML for each page.

you need to use the same kind of html for each page. it you don't it will cause it not to validate and your browser will run in quirks mode and you don't want that. even if it is possible it would be a bad thing to do

[WhiteMage212]

Ok, thanks. Now I can get along and begin my draft. Thanks guys!