Mature Anime without (im)Mature content?

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Re: Mature Anime without (im)Mature content?

Postby Kraavdran » Thu Apr 09, 2015 4:04 pm

the_wolfs_howl wrote: So I've always looked for the more "mature" and interesting stories while trying to steer clear of the worst content. I can put up with a lot of violence (I draw the line at eyeballs and fingers <_<), still flail and rip out my headphones and skip all over the video if I run into anything that looks like it's anywhere near a sex scene.

bahaha, yes! I know exactly what you mean. That is a good description.

Also, thanks for the ideas! I must say, I just couldn't get into Wolf's Rain. I don't know why. But I have a friend who really liked it. Same with Clannad, although I managed to watch a good chunk of it. I really liked the end of Clannad, it had a rather good message. I'll have to look at Kodomo no Omocha.
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Re: Mature Anime without (im)Mature content?

Postby Midori » Fri Apr 10, 2015 10:16 am

EventualDay wrote:Just a day or two ago I was trying to look up the most popular josei anime... and apparently, though there's a lot of manga, there aren't a lot of shows.
Kraavdran wrote:As a side note, I wonder if that is why you never see a really old (visually, all immortals aside) person as a main character in a series.
Xeno wrote:I'm going to agree with Miyazaki that "anime was a mistake". [...] A lot of anime is really bad, and I mean that in the sense of being bland and wholly uninteresting, while appealing to otaku.

I think these things may be more related than they seem. It's a matter of where the money is. Anime makes some money from TV ads and disk sales, but a large part of the money it makes is from merchandising. And that affects who it tends to target: boys will buy action figures, girls will buy mascots and artifacts, and lonely men will buy attractive figures. That's why the most common genres of anime are shounen, shoujo, and seinen, and why a lot of shows pander to perverted otaku. And I think that's why teenagers are the subjects of most recent anime: children can look up to teens because they think they're cool, and otaku guys can identify with teens because they never grew out of being teenagers (sorry if that insults anybody, I speak from within the group).

That doesn't mean there aren't some shows that fall through the cracks and get aired despite low merchandising potential. This could be said of one of my absolute favorite shows, Noein: although half the main characters are children, the other half are actual adults, and I can't really see anything in the show that could be made into a toy. But you often have to search to find shows that are real art. It's not like Miyazaki films where each one is basically a guaranteed jackpot.

Some of my thoughts on this topic came from this (only marginally related) opinion article about how YouTube creators earn money. Here's the relevant sections in case you don't feel like reading it.
Imagine that you would like to consume a piece of content, but in between you and that content is a paywall. They’re asking $15 for one person to view the content one time.
[...]
Of course, this model would never work…except that it works every day at every movie theater in America.
The content that has survived on YouTube is a direct result of crappy advertising revenue. It’s put a dramatic emphasis on getting the most views possible, not just per video but per day. The result: A kind of hyper-frequency, with some gaming channels uploading three to five videos PER DAY. Without volume, it’s hard to make it work.
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Re: Mature Anime without (im)Mature content?

Postby Thunderscream872 » Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:44 pm

Kraavdran wrote:I generally like most anime. I don't know if I can narrow it too much. I primarily watch fantasy/supernatural, psychological, and sci-fi/mech genres. I'm not too keen on anime with the "slice of life" tag. That being said, I have really enjoyed some select slice of life anime. The two genres I dislike are sports and musician-focused ones. Comedy anime can be really good, but I feel like lots of the humor is wasted on me since I don't speak Japanese (like for word-play and puns) and don't know many cultural references from Japan.


Okay, so I know this is a little late, but based on what you said, I've made a list of my recommendations. Not all of these are free of "student" characters, but school isn't really a focus in any of them. I didn't include Psycho-Pass, Darker Than Black, or Fate/Zero on here, because I'm pretty sure you said you seen them. If you haven't, then definitely go watch them too. Anyways:

Code Geass - Its not one of my personal favorites, but it is really good and almost every genre you listed could apply to it. Definitely check it out if you haven't seen it. There are two seasons. If you enjoy season 1, I recommend watching season 2. I thought the second season was just as good as the first, though some people feel that the first season was great and season 2 sucked...I think they're wrong, but to each there own.

Steins;Gate - One of the best anime I've seen, and one of my all time favorites. Though it starts off feeling slice of life-ish, it progresses into a sci-fi thriller. There is a sequel Movie, which I haven't seen.

Blast of Tempest

Eureka Seven - This one doesn't really have thriller or psychological elements to it. "Growing up" is kinda the main theme, but its definitely worth watching, and if you're looking for something intense, it will be at points, but its a very slow moving show. Personally I didn't really enjoy it until around episode 17 (I think), but after that its pretty much all solid.

Attack on Titan - Okay, I know all the hype over it lately can get annoying, but, seriously, it is a good show, and if you're looking for something more "mature", you should check it out if you haven't.

Princess Jellyfish - Yes, it looks, and sounds weird, but its actually really good. If you enjoy watching/can relate to nerdy, really awkward characters, then definitely check it out. Its allot of fun.

Valrave the Liberator - The characters are primarily students, but I think that's worth looking passed. The first season is a little rough, and can be boring at times, but the second season is fantastic and makes the first season worth it.

Another

Black Lagoon

Gungrave - I've heard that its kinda like Trigun (I think you said you liked Trigun). I think there is a good deal of humor in Trigun though, and you're not really gonna find any comic relief in Gungrave.

Canaan

Btooom!

Guilty Crown - Some people have the opinion that Guilty Crown is a poor attempt at Code Geass. While I do agree with that to some extent, I personally prefer Guilty Crown to Code Geass.

Monster - I, honestly, don't think this one is as good as people make it out to be, but I think its worth mentioning. Personally I think its pacing is way too slow. I can deal with slow pacing if the characters are interesting enough, unfortunately I can't say that Monster's characters are.

Baccano!

Cowboy Bebop

Gurren Lagann - There is a good amount of fanservice in this one, and while it can get annoying, it's definitely worth looking passed. Gurren Lagann is one of my favorite anime. Its a really bizarre show sometimes, but its allot of fun.

Samurai Champloo - I just started watching this, and I love it so far!

I only included anime that I've seen, but there are plenty of others out there that might fit what you're looking for. Using sites like MAL can really help you search through the different genres, and find stuff that's a little different then you see in the typical AMV.

Also, just cause I didn't include descriptions for all of them, doesn't mean I recommend those ones any less. I just got a little sick of typing, lol. A few of these have brief fanservice/nudity here and there, but nothing really worth noting. Hope you haven't seen too many of these already lol.
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Re: Mature Anime without (im)Mature content?

Postby Xeno » Fri Apr 10, 2015 4:03 pm

I don't understand why people don't recommend the Rurouni Kenshin series anymore. The last arc is pretty bad, but everything before it is really good and should be watched. Other things everyone should watch: Samurai Troopers, The Big O, Mobile Suit Gundam, FLCL, Beck, Legend of the Galactic Heroes (I'm still working on this one myself), and maybe Evangelion if you can deal with it's gross misuse of religious symbolism.

Cowboy Bebop

Agreed.
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Re: Mature Anime without (im)Mature content?

Postby Kraavdran » Fri Apr 10, 2015 4:11 pm

Midori... nice work connecting all those! That is quite impressive. And kinda makes lots of sense. What you said about true otaku guys not growing out of teenager years (in a way) makes lots of sense too (and, like Midori, I don't mean to insult anyone by saying that). But that does explain why, as a whole, anime seems to have become more "mono-cultured".

So, anime suffers from the same thing that Youtube suffers from (esp compared to movies). That is a really interesting connection too. And, unfortunately, it makes lots of sense. Quantity-driven market vs quality-driven market. I'll have to check out the rest of the article, sounds interesting. Although, now that you mention it, that might explain why there are so few anime movies that are unrelated to a series (and, conversely, so many bleach/naruto movies). It all boils down to merchandising potential.

So, I was thinking that, assuming this theory, anime would have a better balance of main characters in anime from an earlier era (before American otaku, for example). I didn't check this out quantitatively, but I looked at a list of anime from the 70's, 80's, and 90's. A large percentage of them actually focused on an older main character (or at least looked older). You have Berserk, Vampire Hunter D, Armored Trooper, Akira, Captain Harlock, Rurouni Kenshin, Black Jack, First of the North Star, and this list goes on (just wanted to name a few more recognizable ones).


Thunderscream, thanks for that lengthy list. I've actually checked out quite a few of those, but a few I have not. Thanks! I'll be sure to check them out. Thanks for taking the time to write all that out and provide links!


Xeno, I think that Rurouni Kenshin is not recommended more because everyone assumes that it is a classic that everyone has watched? I don't know, that is an interesting point. Also, the animation is a bit old. But, certainly, it is a great anime. Oro! Additionally, thanks for the recommendations. I am really curious about Legend of the Galactic Heroes (possibly just because it reminds me of the Legend of Legendary Heroes... but in space). I'll have to check those out too!
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Re: Mature Anime without (im)Mature content?

Postby blkmage » Fri Apr 10, 2015 7:36 pm

So since it looks like we're getting into performing anthropological and market analysis, a few notes.

First, extrapolating what typical anime was like based on famous titles paints an inaccurate picture. We have a much more full view of the modern anime market: we know every single title that has aired on TV since the early 2000s, the modern merchandising and licensing machine is very different now, and we have a much better understanding of how anime is funded and how that drives editorial decisions. A lot of this same information about earlier decades isn't readily available. I'm sure if someone put effort into looking up research and records, they'd be able to figure it out, but just listing a bunch of titles doesn't cut it. And in fact, I'd be willing to bet I could argue that anime is far more diverse now than before.

Secondly, we have to remember that when we're analysing why anime is the way it is, it exists in a completely different cultural context. I don't mean this simply in the inscrutable Asian culture kind of way. I mean that a lot of the immediate historical context surrounding works or genres is easily lost because it's not obvious to us when we're sitting across an ocean. As an example, I'd argue that something like 'otaku haven't grown up' is symptomatic of why so many works focus on high school but it isn't the underlying cause (the cause is socioeconomic). Or, another way to look at it would be to compare something that runs through all of those decades like Shounen Jump series or Gundam installments (what does Gundam 00 say compared to Gundam W or Z Gundam?).
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Re: Mature Anime without (im)Mature content?

Postby skreyola » Fri Apr 10, 2015 8:08 pm

Thunderscream872 wrote:Eureka Seven - This one doesn't really have thriller or psychological elements to it. "Growing up" is kinda the main theme, but its definitely worth watching, and if you're looking for something intense, it will be at points, but its a very slow moving show. Personally I didn't really enjoy it until around episode 17 (I think), but after that its pretty much all solid.

Canaan

Baccano!

Cowboy Bebop

I'll second these recommendations, though I have to add a caveat to Eureka Seven. While the original show is awesome, be very hesitant about the other shows in the franchise. If you choose to watch them, be aware that they are not AT ALL in the same continuity. They're both Alternate Universe titles. The only thing all three shows share is that Ren is SPOILER: Highlight text to read: smitten with Eureka. E7:AO is about half as good as the original, and PgNdI is very weird after watching the original, as almost everything is different in spite of SPOILER: Highlight text to read: all the same characters being on the Gekko.

It's been a while since I saw Canaan, but I remember it as being very good.

Baccano! is a great show, but be aware there is a lot of violence in it.

Cowboy Bebop was one of the first anime series I watched, back when you had to rent videos to see anime. Great show, though there's a fair amount of language and a bit of fanservice.

Still, I would recommend any of these shows to most people.
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Re: Mature Anime without (im)Mature content?

Postby Kraavdran » Fri Apr 10, 2015 9:20 pm

Blkmage,

First, I should clarify. I listed famous titles for recognition's sake. But my observations of the anime series of each decade, while brief, were on all titles I found (not just famous ones). One glaring exception, it seemed, was the majority of the Gundam series during those decades. I can see where you would say that modern anime are generally more diverse now compared to before... although I do feel like there is a sameness in many of the (at least popular) ones. There are many aspects to an anime series. By no means do I want to say that they are the same in all aspects. In some ways, anime is much more diverse, to be sure.

Second, I'm not certain that I understand what you mean when you call the focus on high school characters to be a socioeconomic matter. Could you explain it? It sounds intriguing. I recognize you make a good distinction: anime (and, really, culture) has many complex variables. It would, generally, be a bad idea to blame the high school theme on any one cause. Although, I do believe that Miyazaki may have some insights in that regard. I would not discredit his thoughts entirely. After all, he has observed the world across the sea for a good number of years... and the anime industry as well. Regardless, I'd be interested to hear your take on it and to understand how socioeconomics plays (a possibly additional) role.

I think that looking only at Shounen Jump series and Gundam installments may be insufficient in terms of looking at anime as a whole. I would expect manga/anime specifically held in Shounen Jump to target a younger crowd. This would not show us the number of, for example, Josei anime or total anime with older leads compared to younger. Although, looking into that quantitatively would require much more time/energy than I have to give. Although, it would be rather interesting research to look at any corollations. Especially if placed on a timeline, of sorts, with major events and culture shifts. :/ Although, that might be hard to do since anime has not been around for too long. Personally, I was satisfied with my look at the 70s-90s.

Your ideas also made me think (and perhaps you were trying to hint at this) the fact that anime has become more popular in America (due to economic availability). America (and, of course, other countries) are now consumers of anime (and merchandise). This seems to have an observed effect on how the anime is produced (simply looking at anime runtimes for anime popular in America suggests so). It would be really interesting to study the effects of digital distrubution (or introduction to a cheap/easy worldwide market) on Anime for both themes, characters, and language.

Thanks for your input!


Skreyola, thanks for your input as well! Baccano and Cowboy Bebop has been recommended to me by so many people (on this forum and outside). Although, to be honest, I never really did get into Eureka Seven. A friend of mine really liked it. I have heard very little about Canaan. I looked into it a while back, but couldn't find a site to watch it on. Maybe I should check Funimation and Crunchyroll again. I guess that I'll have to bump these higher on the list with so many recommendations.

Funny thing that you mention that language is bad in Cowboy Bebop. A few years ago, I talked to a friend of mine from Japan and she said that the Japanese don't have "bad language" like we do in America. It is just that we translate them as such. I thought that was an interesting thing. Not that it really relates much. But, all that said, language is not a big deal for me. Violence isn't bad, although I don't like a steady diet of intense violence. Thanks for the disclaimer, however.
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Re: Mature Anime without (im)Mature content?

Postby blkmage » Sat Apr 11, 2015 12:47 pm

My suggestions were examples of the types of things that you'd be able to compare when looking at broad shifts and weren't meant to be exhaustive. So, for example, when we take a look at Gundam, they're all ostensibly the same: a young teen is thrust into global conflict and we learn that war is bad. But the conflict in Mobile Suit Gundam and the conflict in Gundam 00 are very different because the geopolitical contexts in which they were created (post-Cold War vs. post-9/11) are very different, and that obviously means the themes and what the creators say about war and how they frame it are different.

So I initially didn't really want to get into it, since it's probably going to get really long, but since you asked for it: on high schools in anime, you have to ask why high schools resonate with otaku in the Japanese context. There are obvious convenient reasons from the storytelling perspective: everyone's gone through high school and it provides a nice accessible structure to fit your stories into. So, as argued here, you could see it as otaku having never grown up and are escaping here from the real world.

Up to here, this might not be entirely wrong, but it leaves out a lot: why are they escaping here? If they haven't grown up, why aren't they projecting to some other power fantasy? Why does it tend to be grounded in high school? Why aren't they escaping to an awesome job or something?

The answer to those questions lies in Japanese corporate culture and the state of Japan's economy since the 90s. Now, I have to qualify that I don't study this for a living, but I do recognize some of the cultural context, especially since I believe that we've been starting to head into a lot of the same problems here as well.

So the idea is this: pretty much everywhere, growing up and entering the real world means getting a job and starting a family. For most of the last fifty years, this has meant finding employment with some employer and being employed by them for a long time. Obviously, this is not the case anymore, and we find ourselves in a world where more people are becoming entrepreneurial, self-employed, or finding themselves in precarious work. However, a few things differ between Japan and here.

The first is that being entrepreneurial is much more difficult there than it is in, say the States, because of culture and legal frameworks. That's not a judgement on either of the countries, just a matter of degree; for example, it's more difficult to start a business in Canada than the States for the same reasons, but not to the same degree as Japan. The effect is that more young people in Japan are facing precarity.

Secondly, while we're still in the first decade of grappling with our economic downturn and realignment of work, Japan has been facing it since the early 90s. So there's an entire generation who's had to grow up in a stagnant economic environment, who's had to deal with precarious work. Basically, they can't "enter the real world" because the economy doesn't afford them stable jobs, which means they can't start families and do grown up real world things.

So when we look at escapist media in that context, where do people escape? Do people project themselves into the grown-up real world? No, because the real real world has already shown that aspiration to be a sham and something that's unattainable. So, we go back to high school, where there's youth and optimism and where there's the freedom to define ourselves for the first time. Note that for us, university/college tends to be our version of this.

--

Finally, I don't think foreign access to anime has any effect on the kinds of stories that anime tells (yet), since the 'cheap' part of the equation means that the everything is still geared heavily towards domestic audiences. It's easy to see why: streaming is analogous to TV broadcasts (in Japan), and that makes very little money. The big money is still in media sales and merchandising, which we see none of here. What media is available here for us to purchase is sold at a fraction of the price, so again, not that much money.

And I'd guess that that'll continue to be the case unless something drastic changes. As far as I can tell, where there is a noticeable increase in foreign participation is in exactly the type of fan that mirrors domestic otaku. The average fan who subscribes to Crunchyroll and buys a Funimation boxset is not going to have as much of an effect on the anime zeitgeist in pure dollars as the guy who imports every single iDOLM@STER CD and every BD volume and preorders every nendoroid release.
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Re: Mature Anime without (im)Mature content?

Postby Nate » Sat Apr 11, 2015 3:06 pm

blkmage wrote:streaming is analogous to TV broadcasts (in Japan), and that makes very little money. The big money is still in media sales and merchandising, which we see none of here.


This probably also has to do with the difference in how TV broadcasting is done in Japan compared to the US. In the US, the TV station is the one that offers to buy/produce a show and air it. In Japan, the studio who made the show has to buy the time slot from the station.
The average fan who subscribes to Crunchyroll and buys a Funimation boxset is not going to have as much of an effect on the anime zeitgeist in pure dollars as the guy who imports every single iDOLM@STER CD and every BD volume and preorders every nendoroid release.

My importing henshin belts and action figures is helping the toku industry, woooo!
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Re: Mature Anime without (im)Mature content?

Postby skreyola » Sat Apr 11, 2015 6:48 pm

Kraavdran wrote:Skreyola, thanks for your input as well! Baccano and Cowboy Bebop has been recommended to me by so many people (on this forum and outside). Although, to be honest, I never really did get into Eureka Seven. A friend of mine really liked it. I have heard very little about Canaan. I looked into it a while back, but couldn't find a site to watch it on. Maybe I should check Funimation and Crunchyroll again. I guess that I'll have to bump these higher on the list with so many recommendations.

I'm pretty sure I saw in on Hulu...I'm right; that's where I saw it, and they still have the whole series, if you can access Hulu.
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Re: Mature Anime without (im)Mature content?

Postby Kraavdran » Sun Apr 12, 2015 3:18 pm

Blkmage, I'm going to number these points so it will be easier to reply to. Assuming that you want to continue this further. Like you said, this might become a long topic. Although, I think it might be fruitful.

1) Examples of things to compare - It seems we might be talking about different things. Themes vs character age (ie: how an idea is interacted with vs what the idea is). Either would be really interesting to look at, of course. But I was specifically talking about character age. And, to that extent, I agree with you. Themes have changed over time. Just as culture's focus shifts, so do themes in shows.

2) Reason for otaku - First off, good point in mentioning the escapist mentality. While similar to appearance to "simply never growing out of high school", it is shaded a bit differently. Although, I think, they are related/connected... to a certain degree. That's for providing some insight in terms of how "otaku" became so widespread. Secondly, it sounds like you are focusing on the reason why otaku have seemed to stay/become stagnant. This might be some of our difference. I think that we were just observing a phenomenon. You seem to be talking about causation. Which, is fine. And, certainly, interesting. I've read some on the "gray democracy" of Japan and the difficulties connected with that for work-age young adults. And, again, I don't think that we meant anything inherently condescending towards traditional otaku. The reasons for this cultural phenomenon is complex, but it does have some observable effects, I think, that have been pointed out by people like Miyazaki.

3) Foreign Influence in Anime - That is true, streaming is not very good at making money in Japan. But selling the rights to anime for broadcast in America (Bleach, for example) is... especially considering all the merchandise/DVD opportunities. I don't really know much about how much they charge, but money is money in the eyes of business. I think that this is why anime that shows up in America tend to have such long runtimes compared to ones that get picked up later or only for streaming (bleach, naruto, and one piece are ideal examples). The merchandising isn't super widespread here, but it is more prevalent than you give it credit for, I think. Perhaps it varies based on where you live in America, however. But, again, I don't know too much about foreign trade. It would be interesting to hear about it from someone in that field.


Skreyola, so you say Canaan might be on hulu? Thanks, I'll definitely take a look. Thanks!
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Re: Mature Anime without (im)Mature content?

Postby PLCDreamcatcher14 » Mon Apr 13, 2015 10:41 am

mechana2015 wrote:I have another show to recommend to you under the category of mature in concept not in content.

Death Parade, little to no fan service, only one incident of really severe violence and it wasn't gratuitous, but there to make a point. Just finished watching the show and I give it high marks. 12 episodes on Hulu at the moment.


Yes, I definitely agree with this.
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Re: Mature Anime without (im)Mature content?

Postby Nate » Mon Apr 13, 2015 1:12 pm

Kraavdran wrote:But selling the rights to anime for broadcast in America (Bleach, for example) is... especially considering all the merchandise/DVD opportunities. I don't really know much about how much they charge, but money is money in the eyes of business.


I don't have proof but I'd wager that the money made from selling licensing rights to the US isn't as much as you think it is. While money is money, true, licensing rights almost certainly are not great profit for the Japanese studios. You have to remember that while it is bigger now than it was in the past, anime is still a niche fandom, so charging a lot of money for licenses would make it unappealing for other studios to pick up unless they were sure they had a massive hit on their hands. This means that it's likely that Japanese studios charge enough money that they'll make a profit obviously, but still pretty low to make it more appealing for other countries to pick it up.
I think that this is why anime that shows up in America tend to have such long runtimes compared to ones that get picked up later or only for streaming (bleach, naruto, and one piece are ideal examples).

The reason why anime that shows up in the US tends to be long-running series is a couple of reasons. One, the stuff that is assumed to have the broadest appeal in the US is shounen stuff, such as the three titles you listed. In contrast, a series that is decently popular in Japan, Pretty Cure, doesn't get licensed in the US. It's shoujo. It's going to be seen as having a limited appeal, which makes it not worth trying to license, since the studio probably wouldn't make their money back.

Two, having a series with a lot of episodes means that if the series turns out to be a hit, that it can continue to be released regularly rather than having to wait on episodes, or running out of episodes quickly. If a 12 episode series gets super popular and makes a ton of money, once all 12 episodes are released, that's it. They can't make more episodes, and no more are going to be made in Japan, so the studio can't hype up the next releases and while they can still drum up some interest for releases of related merchandise, having a series like One Piece that you know is constantly cranking out episodes allows you to regularly release box sets/DVDs which help advertise the other merchandise you're trying to sell. It really doesn't have anything to do with the Japanese side of things, it's the American side of things going "What's going to give us the best return on our investment?"
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Re: Mature Anime without (im)Mature content?

Postby Kraavdran » Mon Apr 13, 2015 3:56 pm

Nate,

You do make some good points. Good enough that I actually had to look up some statistics because it seemed to come down to my relative speculation vs yours. Here are the results:

3) Foreign Influence - I will reference an article I found, specifically a chart. (http://i1.wp.com/www.otakutale.com/wp-c ... -Pic-2.jpg). If you look at the second figure, you see how much consumers pay (vs the first figure representing sales of all animation production... although, either would work). Unfortunately, I couldn't find much more recent data. Regardless, I was actually impressed by how much "overseas" represented. This is especially true considering how many series are not widespread in other countries.

As a side note, I was amazed at how big of an industry music plays in anime (especially in terms of money spent by the consumer). Music seems to be in the majority of money spent.

4) US Anime tends to be long-running - That is a good point. Most anime broadcast in America is shounen and there is a large incentive to buy longer-running anime compared to short ones. It does make me wonder though... these anime tend to have lots of filler. Could it not be that the people making the shows draw them out for the sake of profit? Perhaps with America and the western world in mind. I don't think that we can know this without directly talking to someone in that field. But you do make good points that make me hesitate that part of my assumption.
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Re: Mature Anime without (im)Mature content?

Postby skreyola » Mon Apr 13, 2015 5:32 pm

Pretty Cure has been licensed for streaming in the US. Or did you mean licensed for BD distribution?
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Re: Mature Anime without (im)Mature content?

Postby Nate » Mon Apr 13, 2015 11:49 pm

Kraavdran wrote:Regardless, I was actually impressed by how much "overseas" represented.


Wanna know a secret as to part of the reason for that? North American DVD releases are cheaper than Japanese DVD releases and it's a known problem that some Japanese anime fans will import DVDs from here.

That's also not counting the number of Japanese fans who may watch a series on TV and not desire to own the DVDs, whereas in the US a DVD release may be the only legal way to watch a series.

Anyway I'm not an expert in this stuff and haven't really done research, but what I've said is stuff that makes sense from a business perspective and is in line with how the US operates. For example, PreCure is as I said before not going to be a thing that executives will consider capable of being a huge hit in the US, because it's seen as having a very limited audience being something targeted primarily to little girls, whereas something like One Piece is seen as having universal appeal. Now of course, Sailor Moon was a shoujo series and it became pretty popular in the US, but honestly I attribute that to the fact that it came out when the "anime boom" was just starting and was something new and different. It also didn't hurt that Sailor Moon, while being about a group of girls, tended to not feature a lot of stereotypically "girly" activities. It didn't have a lot of things like say, Heartcatch's episodes devoted to planning and holding a fashion show or flower arranging.

Really though as I said I'm just speculating. If blkmage shows up again I'm sure he can provide more concrete evidence.

It does make me wonder though... these anime tend to have lots of filler. Could it not be that the people making the shows draw them out for the sake of profit? Perhaps with America and the western world in mind.


Ha ha, not even close. Wait, you seriously don't know the reason for filler in anime? Okay, here goes.

Anime episodes can be produced faster than new chapters of a manga can come out. Even though an anime will usually start after a decent number of manga chapters are released, there will eventually come a point where the anime has caught up to the manga. When this happens, the anime studio has two choices:

1) The anime can make up their own storyline which wildly diverges from the manga. Examples of this are Trigun, Full Metal Alchemist, and Hellsing. All of them decided to do their own original ideas and came out much different from the manga. In the cases of FMA and Hellsing, they later got new series (Brotherhood and Ultimate, respectively) that followed the manga storyline. But...

2) This option is to make a bunch of filler episodes that take up time, giving the manga a chance to put out more chapters and advance the storyline. Basically all long-running shounen shows do this because making their own storyline would become harder and harder as time went on. Usually filler episodes are self-contained arcs that have no impact on the storyline...though there are exceptions. One Piece had an instance in the Apis arc where Zoro was asked if he could cut some steel chains, to which he replied he could cut anything. Later on in the actual manga, turns out that Zoro being unable to cut steel was a huge plot point. Oops! But hey, the anime studio couldn't have known that at the time.

Regardless, filler episodes in long running anime have literally nothing to do with overseas audiences. They are a result of giving the manga time to make new material.

skreyola wrote:Pretty Cure has been licensed for streaming in the US. Or did you mean licensed for BD distribution?


I actually didn't know it had been! At the very least though we aren't going to be getting a Heartcatch complete series box set or anything, and that makes me sad.
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Re: Mature Anime without (im)Mature content?

Postby Xeno » Tue Apr 14, 2015 5:20 am

Nate wrote:words

There is a third option the studio has when they catch up to the manga, but it doesn't always pan out for various reasons. The anime studio can essentially produce seasons with years gaps between arcs. Initial D is a prime example of this as each season (or stage in this case) covered up to what the manga had done thus far, then took a break until there was enough material to continue again. This doesn't happen often and there are the obvious problems with interest eventually dying before the whole series is completed, but it is an option and has shown to work in at least one case.
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Re: Mature Anime without (im)Mature content?

Postby Kraavdran » Tue Apr 14, 2015 6:18 am

Nate,

Yeah, I was actually reading an article yesterday on how expensive anime DVDs are in Japan. Although, like you said, it is just speculation that Japanese citizens are responsible for a large part of "foreign sales." I'd wager that that is a small fraction. But, unfortunately, we don't have any conclusive evidence and can't really know how the industry is motivated without talking to someone in the industry (specifically, on the Japanese side of the industry). You mentioned that blkmage might be able to provide us with some more concrete examples, so, does that mean he works in the industry?

Oh, yes, don't get me wrong. I understand why filler episodes exist instead of storyline episodes. Bleach made me painfully aware of that. Manga is the primary reason. That's actually one of the factors that they cancelled bleach. But I was speculating on why most anime that get popular in America (and other parts of the world, of course) tend to be bloated from so much filler. As Xeno said, the anime could take a break with gaps between arcs. Unfortunately, this does decrease the saleability (for overseas and otherwise). Sure, the most obvious reason is that about the anime catching up with the manga. But I think that the saleability plays a role. However, it does make me wonder why so many of the super popular anime in America drag on forever. If I had to guess, it is a combination of all these factors. But, I think we are finally hitting a wall of knowledge. Unfortunately, such things would only be known by a person in that field, I think.
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Re: Mature Anime without (im)Mature content?

Postby Ante Bellum » Tue Apr 14, 2015 9:26 am

Is the problem with DVDs as well? I read that BDs were an issue, which makes sense because the U.S. and Japan share a BD region.
I'm sure lack of interest is why Funi will never release physical copies of Tatami Galaxy OR Ping Pong while continuing to sell all the T&A otakus love. I've heard they sometimes get those bundled with series they're purposely picking up, but I'm not totally sure if that's correct. In any case otaku pandering is going to make them money over a relatively obscure series that a lot of people consider "ugly." At least I can hope Disco gets the license at some point in the future.

I do believe the Giant Robo fillers were actually produced to make money for the series, but it's kind of a special case because it's an OVA that released one episode a year and ate through budget like it was nothing. The specials are generally not recommended (the third is sort of all right) because, well, they're bad. Which is quite a stain on an otherwise excellent series.
A series that, you know, couldn't make enough money to continue past a single story arc.

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Re: Mature Anime without (im)Mature content?

Postby PLCDreamcatcher14 » Tue Apr 14, 2015 10:31 am

Ante Bellum wrote:I'm sure lack of interest is why Funi will never release physical copies of Tatami Galaxy OR Ping Pong while continuing to sell all the T&A otakus love.


Funimation is releasing a physical of Ping Pong...
http://shop.funimation.com/Complete-Series_11
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Re: Mature Anime without (im)Mature content?

Postby blkmage » Tue Apr 14, 2015 10:32 am

A few things first: Nate brings up an example that I wouldn't have, which is that there are really two anime markets and we have to be careful about conflating the two. There's the one for kids, made up of your Precures and Aikatsus and Cardfights and Shounen Jumps. This market is enormous and just by sheer numbers alone is guaranteed to outstrip anything in the US. The other market is the late-night market, which operates slightly differently and is the market that targets the otaku. This is where the mature anime will sprout up. Presumably, when we talk about foreign influence, we're talking about being tastemakers in this slice of the market.

Now, on to the chart. At first glance, it looks impressive, but we need to think about what is actually included in that delicious looking pink slice. I do not believe that Japanese reverse-importing makes up a significant portion of that slice. For one thing, like Ante brought up, reverse-importation only really started making sense once North America and Japan were put together in Region A for BDs, but that's a post-2008 phenomenon and the pink slice actually shrinks after that. (Also, North American releases suck compared to the Japanese limited editions)

I also don't think that Overseas means North American disc sales. It'd make no sense if you compared those numbers with the domestic breakdowns. And so now we need to remember that Overseas means 'not Japan' which consists of a lot of places that aren't North America. Children's anime is a lot more mainstream in countries around Japan: HK, Singapore, Korea, Taiwan, etc. These are huge markets and arguably larger than the US. So a charitable interpretation of Overseas would be all licensed media (disc/TV) across all territories which does not include merchandise. If we do include merchandise, then the Overseas slice becomes kinda pathetic. However, another question is whether they're including Overseas imports of Japanese discs, which would further reduce the licensed sales slice.

So now, if we want to talk about influence, we can cut up the Overseas slice into a few broad demographics for our purposes: Asian children's, Asian late-night, EU children's, EU late-night, NA children's, NA late-night. Assuming we're talking about mature stories, we immediately throw out all of the children's slices, but they're likely the largest piece. Then we throw out Asia late-night, because their otaku are really similar to Japan's and spend huge dollars relative to North Americans. Then we're left with the anglosphere and the non-English European late-night slices.

So now I'll get into what exactly merchandising means in the late-night anime sense, because I get the feeling that a lot of us here have assumed merchandising to mean toys or physical goods. Kraavdran actually pointed out that there's a music but, I think, erroneously attributed the wrong part of the graph to it (it's the tiny yellow slice between the dark yellow bar and the pink bar). But, the role music plays hints at how late-night anime is funded and why Japanese and Asian otaku will always outspend everyone else.

For the purposes of this exercise, let's suppose that we want to produce a hot new anime. As Nate pointed out, we have to pay for late-night TV slots, but simply airing on TV is obviously not our goal here. First, we need someone to fund our anime. These will typically be media conglomerates: record labels, production agencies, publishers, etc. And so we get a few of these corporate partners together to form our production committee. Cool. Now these production committee members are going to use the anime as a vehicle to push various things. This is where the idea of merchandising as the biggest slice comes in. In children's anime, this is stuff like toys and idk pens and pencils and folders and all sorts of stuff gets pushed.

Late night anime also has all of that stuff, but there's more to it. Are you adapting a light novel or manga? Then the publisher of that manga or light novel is on the committee and is going to want to make sure the anime results in increased sales of the original work and they're gonna want exclusive character spreads for Newtype or Pash or whatever anime magazine they're publishing. Why is there a record label on the production committee? Because they're going to be lining up one of their artists to perform the OP and ED singles and they're gonna wanna sell a ton of those (Have you ever wondered why the big Aniplex shows always feature the same artists? Now you know: it's because Aniplex is owned by Sony and Sony uses anime to push their new talent). How do we cast characters? Oh, we'll go with an associated agency because there's an up and coming seiyuu that we might want to push.

And so the name of the game for late-night shows is this mixed-media push that you can never replicate in North America. A really good example of this is The iDOLM@STER, which began life as an arcade game and exploded in popularity. And iM@S makes bank for Namco because not only are they able to sell the home version of the video game, but since the game is about idols, they can sell a ton of CDs. And now that they've sold a ton of CDs, they can put on huge concerts. And so it finally gets an anime; how do you get people to buy it? Include limited edition CDs with it! Wait, the concerts are getting too popular, what do you do? Start a lottery, where you can get a chance to order a ticket for every CD you buy!

There's a lot more stuff like this. You bundle an OVA episode with a volume of the manga to jumpstart some sales. You include codes for rare items for your mobile game in the upcoming associated CD single. You include tickets for seiyuu events in your anime BD releases. And while I used an idol anime as an example, it's not the only case like this. Most late-night anime use these things to varying degrees and if they don't, they're probably the ones that don't sell that well (which is not a judgement of their quality; see: Yuasa anime).

And like I said before, it's not just Japan. HK/SG/KR/TW otaku all share the same habits, likely a result of the relative ease of importing in those locations. The record labels in Japan do anison concerts in those places regularly and flights to Japan from those places are cheap enough that flying over for an event or concert is feasible for a lot of people. I know of a few people in North America who do a yearly trip to Japan for things like that too. But on top of that, CDs cost twice as much in Japan as they do in North America and BD volumes cost something six times more when you take an entire show into account. In the face of all of this, there's simply no way the North American market is able to generate, proportionally, anywhere near the amount of money to have any influence.

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Re: Mature Anime without (im)Mature content?

Postby Kraavdran » Tue Apr 14, 2015 11:33 am

blkmage,

Thanks for pointing out the music vs merchandising thing. Those shades of yellow look similar to me. After looking at it again, they are different. This makes much more sense, as I mentioned, because anime music doesn't seem to be too large of an industry compared to other merchandising. Additionally, thanks for clearly expressing how anime is also consumed in other countries outside of North America. I tried to hint on that.

Also, thanks for discussing the inner-workings of how anime start. Really interesting stuff!

Although, I now realize something really important. First, I think that we are a bit off topic (mostly unrelated) from the original topic/conversation. Which is fine, but I think that we are seeing a fruitless discussion because, secondly, we seem to be talking about different emphases on the same topic. This conversation stemmed from a passing comment I made earlier (quoted below). I was just saying that there does seem to be a correlation between anime becoming mainstream in America and runtime/filler... and it would be interesting to study (particularly of specific anime that have become bloated, like Bleach/Naruto/etc). I think that you guys took that to mean that I was saying there was significant influence, perhaps on all groups. I just said that there was an interesting correlation (perhaps my use of "observed effect" was not the best to use). This lead to a conversation where you said it doesn't have much effect (which came across, to me, as no effect) which led me to say there was possibly, if not minor, effect (which, I think, came across as having a significant effect). And the cycle continued. I should make this clear: I do not think that America has a significant influence on the anime industry, especially as a whole. I think that we can agree on that. Additionally, I don't think that this is a really important point, especially in terms of the original post and further thoughts about how anime has changed. Anyways, all that said, sorry for the confusion.

Kraavdran wrote:America (and, of course, other countries) are now consumers of anime (and merchandise). This seems to have an observed effect on how the anime is produced (simply looking at anime runtimes for anime popular in America suggests so). It would be really interesting to study the effects of digital distrubution (or introduction to a cheap/easy worldwide market) on Anime for both themes, characters, and language.


I just realized that I misspelled "distribution" in that post. haha.

Anyway, I hope that clears everything up and I hope we can revert to a fruitful discussion.
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Re: Mature Anime without (im)Mature content?

Postby Ante Bellum » Tue Apr 14, 2015 1:04 pm

PLCDreamcatcher14 wrote:
Ante Bellum wrote:I'm sure lack of interest is why Funi will never release physical copies of Tatami Galaxy OR Ping Pong while continuing to sell all the T&A otakus love.


Funimation is releasing a physical of Ping Pong...
http://shop.funimation.com/Complete-Series_11


I literally did a Google search after I typed that post to be sure. Why nothing turned up for me, I'm not sure (it was all the LE Japanese boxes, which are nice but over $200). Probably could have been more thorough, but I realized I had to get ready for class and just posted it. Thanks for the heads up though. Maybe good sales (assuming it gets that) means an eventual Tatami release (though I'm not too optimistic to hope for a Kaiba license).




ETA: blkmage is a nerd.
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Re: Mature Anime without (im)Mature content?

Postby Nate » Tue Apr 14, 2015 1:35 pm

Actually I can think of one anime where the overseas popularity had a direct effect on Japan, and that is Big O. Big O wasn't very popular at all in Japan and was originally only going to be one season, but the popularity outside Japan caused a second season to be produced.

blkmage wrote:Because they're going to be lining up one of their artists to perform the OP and ED singles and they're gonna wanna sell a ton of those (Have you ever wondered why the big Aniplex shows always feature the same artists? Now you know: it's because Aniplex is owned by Sony and Sony uses anime to push their new talent). How do we cast characters? Oh, we'll go with an associated agency because there's an up and coming seiyuu that we might want to push.


I'd also like to note this isn't limited to anime! The two long running tokusatsu series, Super Sentai and Kamen Rider also are big on using popular singers and seiyuu in their shows. For example, Akira Fuse did the theme song to Kamen Rider Hibiki, Gackt did the theme song and movie song for Kamen Rider Decade, May'n and Anna Tsuchiya did music for Kamen Rider Fourze, and that's not also including some artists making actual appearances in the show, such as Tomomi Itano and Tomomi Kasai from AKB48 playing informants in a lot of Kamen Rider W episodes or famous seiyuu Romi Park playing Usukawa Dayuu in Samurai Sentai Shinkenger. A lot of gravure idols and musical stars get cast in Super Sentai too, such as Kyousuke Hamao and Ren Kiriyama from the Prince of Tennis musicals being cast in Tensou Sentai Goseiger and Kamen Rider W, or Riria being cast as ToQ #3 in ToQger.

Engine Sentai Go-Onger even had famous porn actress Nao Oikawa play one of the main villains!
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Re: Mature Anime without (im)Mature content?

Postby LastLfan » Tue Apr 14, 2015 2:25 pm

Nate you just put To-Qger in a hole new light for me XD also that's super cool, did they do anything like that for Gokaiger as far as famous singers and such?
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Re: Mature Anime without (im)Mature content?

Postby blkmage » Tue Apr 14, 2015 3:07 pm

Yes, I thought it was interesting enough to pursue, but you're right, it is getting a bit off-topic, so I'll just leave the suggestion of Shirobako as a show that just finished airing a few weeks ago which focuses on working life in animation production from the point of view of a group of young graduates starting out in the industry.

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Re: Mature Anime without (im)Mature content?

Postby Kraavdran » Tue Apr 14, 2015 4:00 pm

Yes, off-topic. And, in terms of how money influences the industry, I don't have access to that information. And so I don't want to argue for one side or another. Although, if you find out anything, please let me know. It is, after all, rather interesting stuff.

So, this chart reveals the converted salaries of different professions? I'm not familiar with Shirobako, to be honest. A quick search of this chart suggests that it is accurate. This isn't too surprising, considering the "gray democracy" that I read about a while ago. Although, 9.4k is really low. I am actually surprised how low it is. Quite the incentive to work hard and (eventually) get promoted, I suppose. :/

I'm also really surprised how much Voice Actors make. Granted, these are the "A-list" voice actors who get multiple voice acting jobs each year... but still. I wonder how much the non-celebrity voice actors make.

I'm also struck by how little they are all making as a whole, especially compared to the US equivalents (did a quick comparison here: http://media.goboiano.com/news/2189-bre ... obako%2522). That is such a shame because Anime is so great. But, like you mentioned earlier, the animation itself does not make much money, especially in Japan. I wish anime had the nice budgets of some of the American shows I see on TV. For example, I found that the average anime episode costs US $145,214 (Media Development Research Institute Inc). This is compared to, for example, Game of Thrones that costs 6 million per episode (granted, America shows usually are closer to 2-3 million). This is what is preventing them from remaking Angel Beats! with Fate/Zero graphics. -_- With that said, I'm going to go sit in a corner and cry.
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Re: Mature Anime without (im)Mature content?

Postby the_wolfs_howl » Thu Apr 16, 2015 8:22 pm

Thunderscream872 wrote:Samurai Champloo - I just started watching this, and I love it so far!

A few of these have brief fanservice/nudity here and there, but nothing really worth noting.


*sneaks into intelligent and interesting conversation*

Um...Samurai Champloo has a lot of bad content. It's been a long time since I watched it, so I might be able to deal with it better now, but I remember a lot of aforementioned flailing and stabbing at the fast-forward button when I watched it. There's at least a buttload of innuendo, if not worse. Like...the two main characters rush to a brothel in every new town they come across <_< Again, it's been years, but I remember feeling like I needed to scrub out my brain every time I watched an episode, and I feel no inclination to rewatch it. Don't get me wrong, I still enjoyed the anime and thought it was a really unique story...but just be cautious.

*sneaks back out*
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Re: Mature Anime without (im)Mature content?

Postby Kraavdran » Thu Apr 16, 2015 8:40 pm

Hey Wolf's Howl,

Thanks for the comment!

Although, I must admit, I have watched part of the first episode of Samurai Champloo on recommendation of a friend of mine locally. I don't remember much nudity/sexual content, but I did not even finish the episode. I am very particular when it comes to animation and did not like the animation. There were a few other things that I disliked about the anime as well.

Although, seeing as how we might be on a similar page in terms of anime, I have to ask... what are some of your favorite anime?
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